• shoebum@lemmy.zip
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    9
    ·
    1 day ago

    Hindi or any Indic languages (popular ones) have any case differentiation.

    Mostly because emphasis on any word is not literal it is tonal.

    So there are these things called - matra (12 matras in hindi)

    They are symbols representing inflection/emphasis etc. and we can combine them with each character of the alphabet and convey tone.

    • Paragone@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      8 hours ago

      I think shoebum was saying that “Hindi, or any Indic languages ( Devanagari-based ones ) do not have any case differentiation.”

      I tried learning Sanskrit ( because it seems to be THE language that scripture ought be in ) … and … ugh.

      Devanagari is a syllabari, not an alphabet ( each character is a syllable ), and they hide letters among other letters, in a way that only a child could learn.

      My old brain’s too wooden to learn that stuff at anything-like a useful speed.


      Nobody’s mentioned, though, that the absence of upper/lower case variants breaks CamelCase programming for those languages.

      This means that people whose primary language doesn’t have upper/lower case characters, they probably have a harder time understanding program-code that is written that way.

      There’s a programming-language Citrine which is intentionally designed so that everybody can program in their own language, with it, so apparently it’s the same programming-language, but in zillions of different scripts & languages…

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citrine_(programming_language)

      https://www.citrine-lang.org/


      I’ve no idea if there are matras in Sanskrit: I never got that far ( learning the basic characters, & their pronunciation, defeated me, the 2-3 times I tried learning it ), but that seems brilliant…

      There’s a yt channel on it which has some good help: Sanskrit is engineered to make each sound distinct from the others, in a scientific/systematic way, & so it uses one’s mouth/formants scientifically… they show … it’s something like 5 sounds times 5 variations, or something ( been a couple years since I tried last )…


      but the basic-question: is there some visual emphasis which is global, instead-of only in specific scripts…

      honestly, I can’t think of any…

      I’ve read ( in Gleick’s “The Information” ) that African languages are usually tonal, & Chinese is tonal ( so “ma” and “ma” in different notes means 2 different things ) … hey!

      I just remembered: many languages are illiterate languages, to begin with.

      that … partially breaks the question, because many languages have a foreign symbol-system just stuck onto them, then…

      Like all the American Indian languages that hadn’t evolved their own symbols, when we stuck symbols on their languages, that … broke the natural-language-evolution process?

      Or is it that it is natural for only a percentage of a world’s languages to have any writing?

      hmm…

      foreign/imposed writing-systems would, though, be significantly less likely to have an appropriate system-of-emphasis, is this point…

      _ /\ _

      • shoebum@lemmy.zip
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        4 hours ago

        A lot of excellent observations.

        But you did answer your question when you mentioned most older scripts were illiterate (in the academic sense).

        Illiterate scripts inherently carry a lot of information whose priority is to convey the message independent of the listener (I’m guessing)

        I think languages that can convey tone are awesome. It makes the language richer and less ambiguous

  • Rentlar@lemmy.ca
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    6
    ·
    1 day ago

    Japanese has no uppercase/lowercase. Italics (oblique type) is generally unused as a standard. Bolding can be used but uncommon in most writing. Underlining is commonly used for emphasis. Quotation marks are sometimes used to emphasize in the way “air quotes” would be. It’s rather antiquated but dots or Japanese commas above or beside (in vertical writing) can be used where italics might be used in English.

    Sans-serif and serif have their equivalents in CJK langauges - in Japanese they are called Gothic and Mincho type respectively. With Gothic every line maintains the same width. Mincho uses the traditional standard where line widths vary according to each stroke, the rules are derived from how it was written by brush. Calligraphic writing takes this to an extreme and is more of an art-form on special paper, depending on your intent you can follow the traditional rules or be a bit more creative.

  • sjohannes@programming.dev
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    7
    ·
    edit-2
    1 day ago

    Do languages that use non-Latin alphabets (Asian, Cyrillic, Greek, Hebrew) have upper and lower case letters?

    Greek has upper and lower case. From mathematics/physics you may have come across e.g. the ones for sigma (Σ, σ). Cyrillic also has them; most look the same between the upper & lower case variants, just bigger/smaller (Л, л), but there are some that differ (А, а).

    I don’t think most Asian scripts have letter cases. Javanese script does have upper case but only for a small subset of letters and they are generally not used anymore.

    What about serif or sans-serif?

    Cyrillic and Greek, yes. There are also equivalents to the serif and sans-serif typefaces in Chinese, Japanese, and Korean typography.

    How do they show emphasis?

    On the Web, boldface (but not italics) is very commonly used across various writing systems. Obviously no all caps for those without capital letters.

  • ccunning@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    29
    ·
    2 days ago

    Thai does not have upper case letters.

    It does have a character that essentially means duplicate the previous word which is a common way to pluralize or emphasize:

    Child = เด็ก “dèk”
    Children = เด็กเด็ก or เด็กๆ “dèkdèk”

    Pretty = งาม “ngaam”
    Pretty! = งามงาม or งามๆ “ngaamngaam”

    • ChapulinColorado@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      3
      ·
      1 day ago

      While I don’t speak Chinese, I saw some comment mentioning that the protagonist of the apothecary diaries Maomao’s name means literally “cat cat”. She is latter called Xiaomao meaning something like little cat. I wonder if the first one had some similar roots to the way it is used in Thai meaning big cat 😺

    • lady_maria@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      7
      ·
      2 days ago

      interesting! I love learning about the different kinds of logic languages use. visually, Thai is one of my favorite languages (and Thailand has my favorite cuisine, too)!

  • DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    50
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    2 days ago

    There’s no capitalization in written Chinese.

    But there is a “upper case” for writing numbers. Its set of very complex characters meant for writing contracts so you can’t easily tamper with it.

    Like “一” (one) could be easily changed to a “十” (ten) with just one stroke, but “壹” also means “one”, but you can’t add strokes to change it, any attempt at tampering with contracts/documents would be easily noticed. Usually this is never used in every-day life.

    (Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_numerals#Ordinary_numerals)

    It’s not really “capitalization” but more like writing “One Thousand Dollars” instead of “$1000”

    Idk what you mean by “emphasis”, but there is no difference between proper nouns and common nouns. I mean, there is italics and bold if written digitally. Or underlining it if written on paper.

    (I’m Chinese-American btw)

    • Revan343@lemmy.ca
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      8
      ·
      1 day ago

      Idk what you mean by “emphasis”, but there is no difference between proper nouns and common nouns. I mean, there is italics and bold if written digitally. Or underlining it if written on paper.

      I THINK THEY’RE ASKING HOW YOU WOULD WRITE SO AS TO GIVE THE IMPRESSION THAT THE SPEAKER IS YELLING

      • DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        11
        ·
        1 day ago

        對唔住,漢字冇大寫子,用 BOLD 就得啦

        (Sorry, Chinese Characters do not have capitalized characters, just use bold)

        明唔明?

        (Get it?)

        If the site doesn’t show bold, then:

        注意!
        ***重要消息係呢度!!!***
        明唔明?

        Attention!
        *** Important Message Here!!! ***
        Get it?

        This works too.

        (Note: I do not browse Chinese internet often, but this is what I would personally use to highlight it)

  • VeryFrugal@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    24
    ·
    2 days ago

    Korean does not. BUT, we, sometimes and almost exclusively online, use whitespace(plus exclamation mark) between each characters to emphasize.

    망했다 -> 망 했 다!

  • kender242@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    29
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    2 days ago

    Japanese has three alphabets (and the English alphabet… and those Arabic numbers we are all familiar with)

    • Hiragana (ひらがな) for native words, grammar, and morphology - it reminds me of cursive
    • Katakana (カタカナ) it gives an unmistakable clue you are reading a foreign word - but can also be used for emphasis
    • Kanji (漢字) borrows Chinese characters that can be read with native or borrowed sounds, but generally with the same meaning

    Given those and the English letters at your fingertips they have a lot of tools to give context. Grab a newspaper or Manga sometime, even if you don’t know the words you can tell each writing system apart pretty easily.

    • sartalon@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      2 days ago

      Huh,

      I lived there for three years and only learned about, Kanji, Katakana and Romanji.

      Is Hiragana a more classic version of the language or is it an evolution of Katakana, that it looks similar to?

      • zlatiah@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        12
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        2 days ago

        Hiragana is the standard Japanese alphabet basically… But in everyday language, Hiragana is used to construct Kanji, so you would rarely encounter actual written Hiragana unless 1) in some commonly used terms and/or grammatical constructs, 2) someone is pointing out the pronunciation of a Kanji, or 3) in materials for younger audiences

        Katagana is used for “borrowed words” from non-Asian languages like say ice cream. These words never have associated Kanjis to begin with, so that’s why you see them more often

        Edit: I correct myself, I was a bit too exaggerating… Hiragana isn’t that rare, just less prominent than Katagana. But it is a bit strange if someone lives in Japan in a long time and never know they exist… They are the basic alphabet after all

        • doctordevice@lemmy.ca
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          20
          ·
          2 days ago

          I wouldn’t say you rarely encounter written hiragana. It’s in practically every sentence because, as you mentioned, it carries the grammar of a sentence. Particles, conjugations, auxiliary verbs are all written with hiragana.

          As one of my Chinese friends in grad school put it: he could kind of understand written Japanese but had no idea what was going on with “those weird characters everywhere.”

          • DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            4
            ·
            2 days ago

            As one of my Chinese friends in grad school put it: he could kind of understand written Japanese but had no idea what was going on with “those weird characters everywhere.”

            Lol true. I read the 死 character in a bunch of weird symbols and suddenly the entire message looks so omnious as if its a threat.

            Surprisingly, I looked up "Japan"s wikipedia in Japanese, and some parts are quite readable to me like this:

            They all look familar, as in, it doesn’t look foreign to me, because they are almost all just Chinese, except the weird “@” looking symbol. But unfortunate I never made it past 2nd grade before emigrating so I don’t know how to pronounce the names lol. I know the positions like 天皇, but idk how to pronounce the names of the actual people because they contain characters I never learned.

            Then there’s some parts looking like this:

            I have no idea what most of it is, looks very strange and “foreign” to me, except those few blocky characters that are chinese… I mean, I can make out what it roughtly says based on those few chinese characters: Japan Country … east… location … country … area … population… island nation … 4 island … 6th in the world … economy … [etc…]; like I can read a few characters every so often, everything else, those characters that are curvy and round looks “broken” to me. Like lol when I was a kid, I saw those “broken” characters amd I thought there was a glitch/bug in the electronic device (was messing around with settings and language menu).

            • doctordevice@lemmy.ca
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              4
              ·
              2 days ago

              This is exactly what my friend would say! Wikipedia is a genius example to use. That upper section is mostly nouns, not complete sentences, so it’s just kanji that are mostly readable to people to understand Traditional Chinese characters. The の character is a grammatical particle (written in hiragana) indicating that 最大 is modifying 都市, to give largest city.

              And then all the “curvy” characters in the body of the text are the hiragana carrying the grammar of the sentence. You can understand the nouns and verbs since they’re written in kanji, but the grammar surrounding them is in hiragana. That’s why I thought it was odd for the other person to say you rarely encounter written hiragana. You really can’t write a complete sentence or much more than a single word without it.

        • graham1@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          12
          ·
          2 days ago

          “you would rarely encounter actual written Hiragana” is outright false. It is nearly impossible to write a full grammatically correct sentence in modern Japanese without the use of Hiragana, as Hiragana are used for subject and object markers, conjugation of verbs, question and assertion markers, possessives, adjectives, negation, and many many more grammatical constructs.

          Source: read literally anything in Japanese, like an article from today’s news https://news.web.nhk/newsweb/na/na-k10014946221000

        • sartalon@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          2 days ago

          I did deploy a lot, but I recall one of my first cultural lessons and they only mentioned the three.🤷🏾

          I really appreciate you taking the time to share some of your knowledge.

          Thank you!

          • tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            1 day ago

            Hiragana isn’t very useful if you’re not studying the language. The only thing a tourist or the like would need it for is the names of some food on menus like soba or something like that. It’s much more important to know some basic kanji (like the difference between man and woman when you’re using the bathroom in a restaurant) and then katakana because that’s how they transliterate the foreign words.

            However, if you do study Japanese you’d see hiragana on day one–it’s a crucial part of the language.

  • SnokenKeekaGuard@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    24
    ·
    2 days ago

    None of Chinese Japanese, Korean, Arabic or Hebrew have an uppercase. I believe the Cyrillic alphabet does. That’s Russian Serbian etc.

    Serif and sans serif is not about emphasis? Its pretty much just design and can be included in pretty much any script. The claim used to be that there was a difference in reading speed bw the two but thats not true. Thats not a linguistic feature but a design feature.

    Now italics are tough in most non latin languages. In written form emphasis can be shown by font size, placement of words, color or even spacing.

    I think I remember hearing about using a dot with some vertical Asian language to show emphasis too. (Was a Yt short so weak memory)

  • zlatiah@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    16
    ·
    2 days ago

    I can only answer for CJK (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) languages. Others have answered the first point, but on “showing emphasis”:

    I can confirm that in modern, information-age CJK languages, people also use things like italic, boldface, and other equivalents not too different from English. Notably though the punctuation marks are distinct Unicode letters (they are all full-length instead of half-length) different from their Germanic/Romance counterparts; the Japanese quotation marks are probably the most fun example. As for font type… Chinese has a long evolution history so there are in fact a variety of fonts baked into its history, some of which are very cursed

    If you are referring to pre-information-age… there is the concept of Isochrony on Wikipedia but I think it’s more for individual words. Emphasis can be shown by how you speak a language and stress certain words… but then CJK are all high-context languages so there are lots of nuances

  • NeatNit@discuss.tchncs.de
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    8
    ·
    2 days ago

    Hebrew does not have capital letters. But it does have “cursive”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursive_Hebrew . In Hebrew it’s usually just called “handwriting” (כתב, כתב יד) as opposed to “print” (דפוס). The letters don’t flow into each other like they do in Latin cursive. They’re just faster to write.

    In Unicode, each letter has just a single code point: e.g. ק is Hebrew Letter Qof (U+05E7). If you want cursive, you use a cursive font, but it’s still the same character.

    Some letters have a different final form: if they are the last letter in a word, they look different. These are encoded as different characters, for example: the final form of צ Hebrew Letter Tsadi (U+05E6) is ץ Hebrew Letter Final Tsadi (U+05E5). There is a separate key for it on the keyboard.

    There’s also niqqud, which takes the job of vowels, but that’s a whole other can of worms and isn’t used in everyday writing. It’s only very rarely used to clarify an otherwise ambiguous word.

    • NeatNit@discuss.tchncs.de
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      6
      ·
      2 days ago

      Oh, for “how do they show emphasis” - nowadays I’d say it’s mostly *like this* which in many apps will actually make text bold or italic. But we don’t have a way to “shout” like ALL CAPS WRITING IN ENGLISH. It’s just not a thing. Often, I wish there was a way.

  • Zier@fedia.io
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    8
    ·
    2 days ago

    Cyrillic has upper & lower case, with accents on both. There are serif, sans, display and most weights as well as many other categories, just like in latin scripts. If by ‘emphasis’ you mean italic, yes, there is Italic, and it’s very different from the standard upper & lower case. Cyrillic Cursive is almost like another alphabet in Cyrillic.

  • fubarx@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    8
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    2 days ago

    Greek definitely has upper and lowercase. Arabic and Persian do as well, but also rules on glyphs (different letter-shapes based on proximate letter combinations), as well as small accents that change the pronunciations.

    All have hand-written (cursive or calligraphy) vs typewritten variations, including fixed-width vs variable fonts.

    Serifs are display attributes, mostly for latin alphabets. But greek lettering have had them too, albeit in subtle, light versions. The modern didone (thick) or slab serifs didn’t show up until 18th Century.

    • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      6
      ·
      2 days ago

      The Arabic abjad does not, in fact, have letter case. Letter case, at least in Europe, emerged from cursive uppercase letters, but Arabic is already cursive enough for such a change to be redundant. For example here’s “key” in Arabic: مفتاح. Notice that there’s only one division inside the word despite it being a 5-letter word. This makes the whole concept of case unnecessary.

      • fubarx@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        5
        ·
        2 days ago

        You’re right. For Arabic and Persian, was trying to simplify the idea of an intitial, medial, final, and isolated form and map them to latin upper and lowercase.

        For those interested, the same letter can take different shapes depending on where it appears in a word. For example, the same letter ‘H’ can be:

        • ـح
        • ـحـ
        • حـ
        • ح
  • emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    5
    arrow-down
    5
    ·
    2 days ago

    Asian

    The Latin, Greek, Cyrillic, Arabic and Hebrew alphabets are more similar to each other than to any south / southeast Asian alphabet. Chinese and Korean are completely unrelated to this alphabet family (which is of Egyptian origin), or to each other. Japanese has four scripts. So you’ll need to be a little more precise than ‘Asian’.

    To answer your original question, Cyrillic and Greek have upper case, Arabic and Hebrew have cursive which is not exactly the same, and neither Chinese nor south Asian scripts have upper case.