When an evangelical christian ‘forgives’ you for something, what that actually is is them forgiving themselves for literally anything they do to you after that.
That is them saying that you are totally lost, do not count as a real human being with agency, and thus anything further they do to you is justified, because in their minds, you are not capable of making sensible decisions.
It is a threat, framed deceptively as kindness, and yes, they know they are lying.
Solidarity to a another survivor, though we’re probably from different sides of the continent, and the doctrine and rituals may differ somewhat, the underlying psychology is largely the same at its core.
‘Well, bless your heart’ + a shit eating grin ain’t exactly a common saying where I’m from, but I know exactly what it means.
Escaped a long time ago. I never bought religion. So I enjoyed those sentiments and socially sanctioned holier than thou shunning for decades. Thankfully up north now.
I’m not saying she hasn’t actually forgiven him, but I will say I doubt genuine forgiveness for the killing of one’s spouse is happening under a month in, given forgiveness requires actually processing the harm done, and that actions are far easier than words. Will she call for him to be shown mercy rather than death? Will she work to heal divides? Will she condemn calls for retaliation?
It’s so easy to say that you forgive someone then allow others to retaliate in full force. But the forgiveness Christians are supposed to have is modeled by a dying christ pleading for mercy for his killers.
It’s performative. It makes her look magnanimous, which feeds her vanity. It’s like praying in public to signal how holy you are.
As you alluded, forgiveness is reflected in your works. Asking for mercy, urging calm, etc. But she’s not doing any of those things. Why?
Bear with me for a moment on something. I’m not religious myself, but one of the biggest problems with the evangelical Christian faith is the belief that a person is saved through faith alone (sola fide), rather than both faith and works like the Bible itself makes clear.
John 14:14-17:
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
While I’m sure Luther believed the doctrine of sola fide genuinely, it was certainly advantageous if you were trying to win converts if you didn’t have to do anything. It’s a hollow, easy philosophy invented by Paul. It’s certainly not the first time Paul would advocate for a doctrine based on its ability to win converts more easily; cf. Paul’s ministry to the Gentiles regarding circumcision.
I think this is the root of a lot of problems with evangelical Christianity and the people who espouse it.
I have difficulty seeing purity in someone who pays themselves $12 million per year (as Kirk allegedly did) to run a company whose mission is to indoctrinate students early on with propaganda rooted in hate and misogyny. When they live in a mansion. When they join themselves at the hip with a cruel authoritarian bully.
Sorry, their works thus far are evidence enough for me.
She has not truly forgiven him, she is being a manipulative psycopath.
She will not press for mercy, she will not work to heal divides, beyond possibly those within the right wing so as to shore up the basis of her own political power.
And she absolutely will not condemn calls for retaliation, unless a scenario arises where she personally would stand to lose social status or material wealth by not doing so.
She is a heartless fascist, sure, she has emotions, but her whole life is mostly all about learning how to weaponize that.
Just as horny men grovel and simp for a woman showing skin, ‘Godly’ men have a perfect excuse to be extremely angry when they witness a ‘Good Christian Woman’ making a show of being distraught, but tough, and ultimately leaving it all up to God.
Its like move 1, page 1, on the sympathy generating playbook for these people.
While Gandhi is a much more uh, morally complex figure, shall we say, than a lot of people know about, and this quote may be apocryphal, it nevertheless roughly sums up how I feel about Christian extremists:
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
You’re most likely correct, but it can be wise to show not tell. When we assert what forgiveness looks like and give her the opportunity to show it, we come off looking better than her, but when bystanders see her saying she has forgiveness and us calling her a psychopathic fascist we look worse than her. You bring up ghandi, and this media game is more or less how his nonviolent protests worked
Mass televised or otherwise public grieving is almost never sincere, at the very least, it is almost never healthy.
Grieving, truly processing a loss, is done in private, or with a few close friends or family… it is a process of self reflection and self exploration, not self projection.
The other element here is the rank hypocrisy with the religious context and framing and the other speeches she has allowed to occur here, which she surely knew would be given, and at least largely endorsed.
A whole lot of Jesus’ sayings are about how one should practice their faith in private, one should lend to charity anonymously.
There is a solid undercurrent of discretion, of not making grand public displays of faith, of your own self righteousness, etc.
… Would you invite a bunch of bombastic hate mongers to the funeral of your loved one, agree to have it as a mass public hate rally?
Or would you prefer a smaller, private gathering, and to… be given some space, for a bit, with occasional checkins or close friends on standby for help if needed?
As to me calling her display psycopathic as bad PR:
You may note that I am not blasting that message outward to millions of people.
You may note I have not accompanied that messsge with a jubilant mocking video and audio display over her husband’s death, nor likewise with a snobbishly toned monologue rantsona dripping with venom in my voice.
Looking like around 30 ish people is my audience size.
For reading some text.
Intentionally leaving intonation and body language and speech timbre and tempo soley up to the reader.
If anything, what I intend to convey is solemnity.
PR is not even close to the same as how I actually feel.
How I actually feel is terrified on a grand societal level, genuine concern for the safety and well being of millions likely to be seriously harmed by what her display, and the rest of it, presages.
I did not instantly jump on TikTok like a vengeful spirit and record a snarky video of myself celebrating Kirk’s death.
What I actually did was go into a PTSD shock / panic attack episode for an hour, upon seeing, up close in HD, the column of blood erupt from his neck, the life leave his eyes basically instantly, because I have seen too much shit like that already in the real, it has scarred my psyche.
I do perhaps share your fear of bad PR, but at a very, very deep and visceral level…
And for myself, what I would absolutely never wish to convey is any kind of performative inauthenticity.
Christians are pretty horrible, tbqh. Especially American Christians. I mean, they overwhelmingly support a convicted felon and adjudicated rapist who is a poster boy for every deadly sin and are using the federal government to force their beliefs on everyone else.
So maybe you could just open your fucking eyes or something.
When an evangelical christian ‘forgives’ you for something, what that actually is is them forgiving themselves for literally anything they do to you after that.
That is them saying that you are totally lost, do not count as a real human being with agency, and thus anything further they do to you is justified, because in their minds, you are not capable of making sensible decisions.
It is a threat, framed deceptively as kindness, and yes, they know they are lying.
This absolutely nails it. (Grew up in a southern baptist church.)
Solidarity to a another survivor, though we’re probably from different sides of the continent, and the doctrine and rituals may differ somewhat, the underlying psychology is largely the same at its core.
‘Well, bless your heart’ + a shit eating grin ain’t exactly a common saying where I’m from, but I know exactly what it means.
Escaped a long time ago. I never bought religion. So I enjoyed those sentiments and socially sanctioned holier than thou shunning for decades. Thankfully up north now.
I’m not saying she hasn’t actually forgiven him, but I will say I doubt genuine forgiveness for the killing of one’s spouse is happening under a month in, given forgiveness requires actually processing the harm done, and that actions are far easier than words. Will she call for him to be shown mercy rather than death? Will she work to heal divides? Will she condemn calls for retaliation?
It’s so easy to say that you forgive someone then allow others to retaliate in full force. But the forgiveness Christians are supposed to have is modeled by a dying christ pleading for mercy for his killers.
It’s performative. It makes her look magnanimous, which feeds her vanity. It’s like praying in public to signal how holy you are.
As you alluded, forgiveness is reflected in your works. Asking for mercy, urging calm, etc. But she’s not doing any of those things. Why?
Bear with me for a moment on something. I’m not religious myself, but one of the biggest problems with the evangelical Christian faith is the belief that a person is saved through faith alone (sola fide), rather than both faith and works like the Bible itself makes clear.
John 14:14-17:
While I’m sure Luther believed the doctrine of sola fide genuinely, it was certainly advantageous if you were trying to win converts if you didn’t have to do anything. It’s a hollow, easy philosophy invented by Paul. It’s certainly not the first time Paul would advocate for a doctrine based on its ability to win converts more easily; cf. Paul’s ministry to the Gentiles regarding circumcision.
I think this is the root of a lot of problems with evangelical Christianity and the people who espouse it.
I have difficulty seeing purity in someone who pays themselves $12 million per year (as Kirk allegedly did) to run a company whose mission is to indoctrinate students early on with propaganda rooted in hate and misogyny. When they live in a mansion. When they join themselves at the hip with a cruel authoritarian bully.
Sorry, their works thus far are evidence enough for me.
She has not truly forgiven him, she is being a manipulative psycopath.
She will not press for mercy, she will not work to heal divides, beyond possibly those within the right wing so as to shore up the basis of her own political power.
And she absolutely will not condemn calls for retaliation, unless a scenario arises where she personally would stand to lose social status or material wealth by not doing so.
She is a heartless fascist, sure, she has emotions, but her whole life is mostly all about learning how to weaponize that.
Just as horny men grovel and simp for a woman showing skin, ‘Godly’ men have a perfect excuse to be extremely angry when they witness a ‘Good Christian Woman’ making a show of being distraught, but tough, and ultimately leaving it all up to God.
Its like move 1, page 1, on the sympathy generating playbook for these people.
While Gandhi is a much more uh, morally complex figure, shall we say, than a lot of people know about, and this quote may be apocryphal, it nevertheless roughly sums up how I feel about Christian extremists:
You’re most likely correct, but it can be wise to show not tell. When we assert what forgiveness looks like and give her the opportunity to show it, we come off looking better than her, but when bystanders see her saying she has forgiveness and us calling her a psychopathic fascist we look worse than her. You bring up ghandi, and this media game is more or less how his nonviolent protests worked
Mass televised or otherwise public grieving is almost never sincere, at the very least, it is almost never healthy.
Grieving, truly processing a loss, is done in private, or with a few close friends or family… it is a process of self reflection and self exploration, not self projection.
The other element here is the rank hypocrisy with the religious context and framing and the other speeches she has allowed to occur here, which she surely knew would be given, and at least largely endorsed.
A whole lot of Jesus’ sayings are about how one should practice their faith in private, one should lend to charity anonymously.
There is a solid undercurrent of discretion, of not making grand public displays of faith, of your own self righteousness, etc.
… Would you invite a bunch of bombastic hate mongers to the funeral of your loved one, agree to have it as a mass public hate rally?
Or would you prefer a smaller, private gathering, and to… be given some space, for a bit, with occasional checkins or close friends on standby for help if needed?
As to me calling her display psycopathic as bad PR:
You may note that I am not blasting that message outward to millions of people.
You may note I have not accompanied that messsge with a jubilant mocking video and audio display over her husband’s death, nor likewise with a snobbishly toned monologue rantsona dripping with venom in my voice.
Looking like around 30 ish people is my audience size.
For reading some text.
Intentionally leaving intonation and body language and speech timbre and tempo soley up to the reader.
If anything, what I intend to convey is solemnity.
PR is not even close to the same as how I actually feel.
How I actually feel is terrified on a grand societal level, genuine concern for the safety and well being of millions likely to be seriously harmed by what her display, and the rest of it, presages.
I did not instantly jump on TikTok like a vengeful spirit and record a snarky video of myself celebrating Kirk’s death.
What I actually did was go into a PTSD shock / panic attack episode for an hour, upon seeing, up close in HD, the column of blood erupt from his neck, the life leave his eyes basically instantly, because I have seen too much shit like that already in the real, it has scarred my psyche.
I do perhaps share your fear of bad PR, but at a very, very deep and visceral level…
And for myself, what I would absolutely never wish to convey is any kind of performative inauthenticity.
Source?
Source is me, asshat, I grew up in such a family and culture and had to fucking escape it.
Removed by mod
Christians are pretty horrible, tbqh. Especially American Christians. I mean, they overwhelmingly support a convicted felon and adjudicated rapist who is a poster boy for every deadly sin and are using the federal government to force their beliefs on everyone else.
So maybe you could just open your fucking eyes or something.